Coach Carlisle's Best Team?

Posted by Dan Jensen

I don't know why but I've never given any thought to which of Coach Carlisle's teams was the best. But I now intend to do so and I invite y'all to join me--and post about it.

Hopefully Coach will give us his choice.  That will settle the matter once and for all for me but I still want to rummage around in my memory and hope many more will too.  Coaches Talley and Proctor could offer opinions that would be of much value to me also.

Comments

[Pat Jensen]

No question about it - 1956 was the best team - HANDS DOWN.

[Dan Jensen]

I see right now it's gonna be hard to get an unbiased opinion from our former players.

Coach needs to come in here and settle this early.

[Pat Jensen]

It's already settled. HANDS DOWN!

[Dan Jensen]

Your mountain of evidence is quite compelling but you might want to add a bit more to make your claim indisputable.

[Hugh Taylor]

How about the thorn of '59? We were able to overcome the agony of defeat and gain a small measure of respect. Saddled with the soph. Timmons, who we had to show how to tie his shoes. He was a defensive specialist and was not allowed to touch the ball on offense. Ed's job was to keep the ball away from Bennie so the other seniors could have a chance to shoot, however, Ed forgot how to pass. Charlie & I were only allowed to touch the ball after it bounced off the rim. Since deadeye Ed & Bennie missed so seldom we did not get much practice or chance to shoot. Since Pat & I will be the only posts we can come in second at worst.

[Ed Davis]

I vote with you Hugh. We had to be a great team in 59 to overcome such talentless players like Paul Timmins and Bennie Lenox and still win that many games. Obviously the losses we had were their fault entirely.

[Dan Jensen]

It looks like I am going to have to restore some sanity to this thread. I'm going to construct a list of the top teams, maybe just a Top Five to spare the 59 squad of the embarrassment of being last.

In the meantime, I sure would like some comments from Coaches Carlisle, Talley and Proctor. Coach Talley mentioned Byrd Menard. Anyone know his e-mail? Kenneth Royal would be good too. You area guys do some detective work, please.

[Pat Jensen]

I hope we continue to have fun with this, and I'm sure we will, but trying to compare teams over such a wide time span is like comparing George Mikan with Hakeem Olajuwon. Players get bigger, taller, faster and jump higher all the time. Maybe different eras, say five or ten years, could be compared. Probably only one person could accurately compare them, Coach Carlisle. He wouldn't do it, and I wouldn't blame him. Continue the banter. It's good for the blood flow, but in the meantime, until somebody proves differently, with only one state champion team, that's my pick.

[Dan Jensen]

Brother Patrick and I continue to disagree on this subject.

That state championship trophy was plumb loverly but I do not consider that team our best all-time. I would take his 1956 team over it, for one. Let me sift through some others and get back to you.

In the meantime, I hope we get some more nominees on this one. I sure wish Coach would cast a ballot.

[Dan Jensen]

You know, I just realized this thread is not going to give us the information we are seeking.

Why? Because, we have mainly former players in here. After their careers were over they dashed off to college or making a living out of the area and did not even see some of the good teams. They are not in position to give valid comparisons.

Now, there are some who could. Keith Mathis and Bobby Galloway pop in my mind since they stayed in League City and have regularly followed the team and there may be a handful of others.

Ralph Parr has been close to the program but he is too busy walking his dog these days to be of any benefit to us. He is a serious occasion.

[Peggy Carlisle]

I have Byrd Menards email address
It is [email protected]

Peggy Carlisle

[Dan Jensen]

Peggy has given an example that others ought to follow. Thank you, lady.

[George Carlisle]

I don't know who said this, but I could not, and would not, pick a best team. So, settle it, guys. You can't compare apples and oranges, because they are both good, but personally I like bananas. But like Dan says, have fun with it. That's really what all this is about. Thanks for asking me though. Coach Carlisle

[Dan Jensen]

Coach is about as helpful as Ralph Parr on that one.

I guess I will be forced to do some rummaging. But, probably not tonight.

[Dan Jensen]

Unfortunately, Coach has declined to name his best team so it is my solemn duty to take a shot at it by listing my top five, limited to the Carlisle era. Perhaps it is my tentative top five. This is harder than I thought and I likely will get "helpful suggestions" from some of you. That's fine. Fire way.

But now, I am on the firing line and want to say up front that there are more than five teams worthy of top five billing.

1. 1960 (39-3) A team that lost more games than some of the others but it also won more. Bennie Lenox was all-state for the second time he scored over 1,000 points that year. The only way to beat us was to hold him under his 25 point average. We lost to New London by seven when he scored 18, to Madisonville by nine when he scored 16 (five games after he scored 30 against them in a 14 point win) and 9 in the state tournament opener as he fouled out in the fourth quarter in a 10 point loss to Linden-Kildare. Paul Timmins was a junior and Bill Doty a sophomore. Had they both been seniors, we would have been 42-0 that year. Senior John Mann and junior Norman Lunday were the other starters. This team averaged 63 points per game, the opponents 44, and had winning streaks of 15 and 17 games.

2. 1956 (33-1) Only the 84-81 heartbreaker to Phillips in the state tournament marred a perfect season. This team had a good rebounder and good outside shooting and was extremely well balanced in scoring. Paul Blanchard led with 13.3 followed by James Davis 10.9, Robert Brown 10.6, Pat Jensen 10.4 and Garvis Hadley 10.0. The latter two missed several games with sprained ankles but the team continued to win and averaged 13 points more per game than the opponents.

3. 1954 (31-2) This team put us on the map and got the program on the glory road by opening the season with 28 straight wins. They were our first big winner and deserve so much credit, not to mention outscoring opponents by 17 per game. Junior Boonie Wilkening, with his majestic jump shot, led scorers with 14.3 points per game but the four senior starters, Billy Coleman, Arthur Landriault, Joddie Witte and Joe Barba, gave balanced support.

4. 1961 (36-2) Seniors Paul Timmins (16.1 points) and Norman Lunday (14.2) and junior Bill Doty (14.7) formed a potent trio with junior Rick Jones and sophomore Curly Lenox the other starters. We got past the opening state tournament game for the first time with a 50-49 win over Don Haskins and Dumas but lost to South San Antonio, 67-54. It had winning streaks of 15 and 21 games.

5. 1963 (26-6) Less wins and more losses than some others but one more state championship trophy! This was Coach Henry Bauerschlag's first team but it, of course, was Coach Carlisle's too and a happy memory is seeing him celebrate with the masses on the Gregory Gym floor after the eight point win over Seminole in the title game. Curly Lenox was our big scorer at 21.6 points per game and nephew Jimmie Dale averaged 13.9. Other starters were Ronnie Wilkening, James Collins and Wayne Townsend.

There you have it, a top five with three more 30 win teams lurking in the shadows.

I will listen to any comments and try to answer any questions.

[Jim Pell]

Dan, You are a very brave soul to go out on such a long limb. I know little brother, Pat, is not going to be pleased with you, for sure! It's interesting to read about the teams on a comparative basis. By the way, where are you ranking our '59 team? I'm sure its omission is just an oversight. As Hugh has suggested, that team had a lot of high quality intangibles that just can't be reflected in wins and losses. Also, I never knew we crossed paths with Don (The Bear) Haskins until you brought it up recently. He was only in his 6th year or so of coaching at the time. Here is a link on Haskins that is pretty good. I wish we could get this kind of info together on Coach Carlisle. Did Coach go to 1-12 at Prairie Lea? Did Prairie Lee have a football team? If he was an All-American at SWT, then he must have been some kind of a stud at Prairie Lea. Do you have any of this background on Coach?

http://www.hoophall.com/halloffamers/Haskins.htm

[Dan Jensen]

Jim, I would love to have Prairie Lea and Southwest Texas information on Coach and I have asked Peggy if she could provide it for us. I dearly hope she will.

[Dan Jensen]

I just received a package from Les and Helen Talley that contains a gold mine of stories from old newspaper clippings. Ed Davis got the same stuff and will no doubt be sharing in the clippings section.

One of the items concerned a 1968 story by John Platzer who wrote for the local News-Citizen and selected a 10-man committee to determine all-time Clear Creek players and teams.

It was interesting to note that five of the ten chose the 1960 team as the all-time best. The 1966 team got two votes and the 1954, 1963 and 1968 teams got one vote each.

I wonder if the 1966 and 1968 teams were not too recent then for an objective vote but I don't wonder what members of the 1956 team think about not getting a single vote.

As far as individual all-time best, four teams were chosen with an honorable mention list. I will start a separate thread on that.

[Pat Jensen]

It's highly unlikely the '54 team was better than the '56 team. Even as B teamers, we routinely beat them in practice. If the upcoming thread you mentioned will not include the names of the committee members and insight into how conclusions were reached, that information would be interesting now.

[Dan Jensen]

At the time, John Platzer told me who was on the ten person committee but I don't remember now. I do remember that there were some that I thought had no business on there.

I was not on the committee and I doubt that Keith Mathis and Lynn Davis were. How could the selections have any validity without us?

I think Ralph Parr was on it. It's rumored that he is responsible for all those false season records. Maybe we should demand a recount.

[Dwayne "Curley" Lenox]

I know this response is about four years late but I would still like to comment on Coach Carlisle's best team. Of Dan's top five selections, I am very familiar with three of them but not the 1954 and 1956 teams. Throughout the years, I have heard a great deal about the 1956 team from my brother, James, and others that followed them all the way to the state meet in Austin. James said they were a very good team with super balance. I saw them play but do not remember a whole lot about the individual players. The legendary coach at Southwest Texas, Milton Jowers, told me that the Webster/Phillips game was the best game he ever saw, and he has watched hundreds.

Like the 1956 team, I don't know much about the one from 1954. James took us boys to some of their games but I only remember Boonie Wilkening and his left-handed jump shot. James said they were a good team, but not great.

I played on the 1961 team as a sophomore with Paul Timmins, Norman Lunday, Bill Doty, and Rick Jones. We were defeated by 2-A Madisonville in their own Hickory look-alike gym. The awful facilities is not what got us beat. Madisonvill had a very good team and could have beaten us anywhere we played. Of course, we could have beaten them anywhere as well. The only reason they did not make it to the state tournament is because Buna beat them in their regional finals. We did not lose again until the state championship game with South San Antonio. However, the 1961 team was not the best Carlisle team.

The 1960 team with Bennie, Paul Timmins, Norman Lunday, John Mann, and Bill Doty was another very good team, but not the best. They probably had better players than most of the other teams, but lost to Linden-Kildare in Austin.

Not unexpectedly, I am definitly biased in my personal selection. I don't believe that any of these teams mentioned by Dan as his picks had to rise from the ashes more times than the 1963 did and still win a state championship. Every player on that team had to develop a stringent determination that we were going to win district, even after the two district losses in the first round. After winning district that same determination continued throughout our march through the playoffs until we were crowned State Basketball Champions, 1963. I realize the previous Clear Creek basketball teams had set high standards for every other team that followed. A couple even came close to winning state. However, the feeling of coming in 2nd or 3rd in state is light years away from the feeling one has when the team he is on actually is the best in the state in their particular classification. I was fortunate enough to be on teams that came in 2nd and 3rd. Believe me, there is no comparison.

Colleges don't say a particular team was their best when another class in their school won the only national championship. Neither do the pros. Again, let me say that there were without a doubt better players on some of the other Clear Creek teams than was on the 1963 team. Remember, though, we are talking about a team, not individual players.

I wish every Clear Creek team could have won a state championship in basketball. That would have been fantastic. Hopefully, we will have some in the future. Then, others can discuss them as we are doing about the Coach Carlisle era. We will never have a clear resolution. However, when we all wake-up every morning, we are still Clear Creek Wildcats, and that is something special.

[Dan Jensen]

It took Curley (I always thought it was spelled Curly) way too long to contribute to this blog but he sure made up for it with this plumb loverly post!

I don't blame him one bit for touting the team that he led to a state championship. It would be a unanimous choice for comeback team but I still have to stick with the 1960 team and still wish that Timmins, Lunday and Doty had been seniors along with Bennie Lenox.

Yes Curley, we still wake up as Wildcats every morning and, to us, that is indeed very special but that feeling is no longer shared by those who play and direct things at our old school. Very, very sad.

The current players should be made to bow down to the 1963 state championship trophy and not wear the school name on their jersies until they bring some of the old pride back into the program.

Curley, it's great to see your comments. Please continue. You and Scooter need to beat up on big brother Bennie and encourage him to post in here too.

[paul hackett]

How great to hear from Curley. I never really knew him until I got to SWT. The guy could flat out shoot. While I remain very partial to my team of 65-66, it is hard to rate any team higher than the one that actually won it all.

[Scooter Lenox]

It seems to me that it should be no contest which TEAM was the best. The 63 team that won state had a lot of struggles yet overcame all the adversities to become the champs. It is hard not to say the 68 team when I was a senior was one of the best, but I personally would not rank it in the top 5. The reason is that the team as a whole did not have the drive to become the best team we could be. We had talent, but were lacking in team chemistry. We were 35-0 when we lost to Conroe in regionals. Some of our team did not think we could lose and became complacent and cocky. I could see it coming.